I am unsure, Joy, that you understand my position; and I am not sure I understand yours. You accuse me of ‘both-sides-ism’; clearly a category you have with specific implications. I would not say that both sides are in some sense equal in this conflict; clearly the Palestinians have been occupied illegitimately, and Israel has acted egre…
I am unsure, Joy, that you understand my position; and I am not sure I understand yours. You accuse me of ‘both-sides-ism’; clearly a category you have with specific implications. I would not say that both sides are in some sense equal in this conflict; clearly the Palestinians have been occupied illegitimately, and Israel has acted egregiously and in bad faith towards them. That does not change the fact that the October 7th attack was far outside the bounds of human behaviour acceptable in any context. I don’t know if you accept the reality of the actions; there is a strong stream of denialism, but as far as I can see the claims of rape and torture are true.
I do not accept the calculations of equivalence or lack thereof; whether these actions were ‘more’ or ‘less’ appalling that the mass destruction wrought by the Israelis. They are both monstrous, and nether is justifiable. They are both comprehensible, in the sense that they are both the result of accumulated generational trauma; trauma begets atrocity, and this does in no way excuse it.
None of this changes my belief that the situation with Israel’s occupation of Palestine is wrong; and, any ideas any of us have about what ‘should’ be done comes to grief on the reality of the extreme and entrenched attitudes; the only effect of atrocities on either side, regardless of our ideas about ‘justice’, will be to make matters even worse. Support Palestine, but condemn the atrocities! My belief is that this is the only stance one can take without compromising one’s humanity.
Finally, thanks again for the book references; I always knew the Israeli occupation was not legitimate, and now I am much more knowledgeable about it. And, nothing in these books tells me it is acceptable to…well, I won’t mention details, you either know them or choose not to.
I’ll say one more thing though: comparing the Oct 7th atrocities to the actions of the Israeli army: they are really incommensurable. In terms of numbers, the Israeli actions are orders of magnitude worse. In terms of total suffering, much worse. But in terms of inhuman sadistic brutality?
Please, if in any response to this you are inclined to use the word ‘colonial’—don’t. That is NOT the point.
I am unsure, Joy, that you understand my position; and I am not sure I understand yours. You accuse me of ‘both-sides-ism’; clearly a category you have with specific implications. I would not say that both sides are in some sense equal in this conflict; clearly the Palestinians have been occupied illegitimately, and Israel has acted egregiously and in bad faith towards them. That does not change the fact that the October 7th attack was far outside the bounds of human behaviour acceptable in any context. I don’t know if you accept the reality of the actions; there is a strong stream of denialism, but as far as I can see the claims of rape and torture are true.
I do not accept the calculations of equivalence or lack thereof; whether these actions were ‘more’ or ‘less’ appalling that the mass destruction wrought by the Israelis. They are both monstrous, and nether is justifiable. They are both comprehensible, in the sense that they are both the result of accumulated generational trauma; trauma begets atrocity, and this does in no way excuse it.
None of this changes my belief that the situation with Israel’s occupation of Palestine is wrong; and, any ideas any of us have about what ‘should’ be done comes to grief on the reality of the extreme and entrenched attitudes; the only effect of atrocities on either side, regardless of our ideas about ‘justice’, will be to make matters even worse. Support Palestine, but condemn the atrocities! My belief is that this is the only stance one can take without compromising one’s humanity.
Finally, thanks again for the book references; I always knew the Israeli occupation was not legitimate, and now I am much more knowledgeable about it. And, nothing in these books tells me it is acceptable to…well, I won’t mention details, you either know them or choose not to.
I’ll say one more thing though: comparing the Oct 7th atrocities to the actions of the Israeli army: they are really incommensurable. In terms of numbers, the Israeli actions are orders of magnitude worse. In terms of total suffering, much worse. But in terms of inhuman sadistic brutality?
Please, if in any response to this you are inclined to use the word ‘colonial’—don’t. That is NOT the point.